Legislature(2001 - 2002)
02/11/2002 03:40 PM House FSH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 283-APPOINTMENTS TO BOARD OF FISHERIES CO-CHAIR STEVENS announced that the first bill before the committee, HOUSE BILL NO. 283, "An Act relating to appointments to the Board of Fisheries and to the ex officio secretary of the Board of Fisheries." Number 0082 REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI, speaking as the sponsor of HB 283, mentioned the recent fish caucus and said there were a great many bills presented there. He said all of the bills were approved and worked over by the United Fishermen of Alaska (UFA). He said the bills are in response to some needs in the industry for legislative change. He said that HB 283 asks that the Board of Fisheries have designated seats. Representative Scalzi said currently all of the seats are at large. Historically, the board was greatly influenced by commercial fishermen. Currently, there is a shift away from that influence towards more of a lay board. He said that this shift has brought about a loss of much knowledge and history of the industry. REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said with the consent of UFA, this bill is asking for three designated seats for commercial fishing; three for sport, charter, and personal use; and one for subsistence use. He said that there are good arguments for why there should be a lay board, but said that the North Pacific Fishery Management Council and the International Pacific Halibut Commission - large and prominent bodies that manage federal fisheries - both have designated seats. He said that those commercial seats would require active fishermen who hold fishing licenses. Representative Scalzi brought up the issue of retired fishermen who will be excluded from the board as a result of this. He said he would leave that issue open to discussion. He conveyed the position of the UFA as one of wanting to see a stronger commercial fishing presence on the board. Number 0408 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked if members of the board were meant to have five years' experience "right before they go on the board, or just five years of experience, period." REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI answered that "five years' experience, period, would be sufficient." Number 0453 REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked how this bill would apply to people retired from the fishing industry. REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said they would be excluded, but said he thinks that is an issue in need of more discussion. He voiced his concern that there is a pool of resources that should be considered. He gave the example of Clem Tillion as a person with a type of experience that could be excluded from the board if retired fishermen were excluded. Representative Scalzi spoke of a need for a progressive, new direction in the fishing industry, and said this would require "active participants" and those with a vested interest in the industry. REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER expressed her concern about the subsistence board member. She said she could envision this person being an elder, because "most active subsistence hunters cannot afford to be a professional meeting-goer." She asked about that in terms of retirement. REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said he wanted a bill "that works for everybody," and said he would be open to the bill's amendment. Number 0648 REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked how active permit holders in an area with a poor commercial fishing industry - like Bethel - would be regarded in light of the retirement issue. She gave the example of Dr. Bob White. REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said he assumed if he were an active permit holder, he would be considered an active fisherman. Number 0718 LANCE NELSON, Assistant Attorney General, Natural Resources Section (Anchorage), Department of Law, testified via teleconference. He said the administration is opposed to the bill. He said the current standards of knowledge, diversity of interests, and points are sufficient to field good candidates. He said the administration's view is that the bill conveys a lack of importance of subsistence "just by the numbers." He said it does not provide for the diversity that the administration is looking for, since all of the members could possibly be drawn from the commercial fishing industry. Mr. Nelson also voiced the administration's concern about the knowledge and experience of retired commercial fishermen, along with retired biologists and others being lost. Number 0924 REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked if the administration had a problem with the concept of designated seats like those on the other two bodies he had mentioned. MR. NELSON said he thinks the administration feels that the current standards, combined with the confirmation process, should allow diversity on the board. REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked if the administration felt that the designated seats of the International Pacific Halibut Commission or North Pacific Fishery Management Council did not provide adequate representation. MR. NELSON said that he was not sure how the administration felt about that particular issue. Number 1008 SUE ASPELUND, Cordova District Fishermen United, testified via teleconference. She said her organization was in full support of the bill, but added that there were some changes that could make it more useful. She said the scope must be broadened for representation of the commercial interests. Ms. Aspelund said that commercial fishing issues are very complex, and that they comprise a great deal of the time the board spends deliberating. She said for this reason, hands-on knowledge is very important. She said that part of the reason for poor representation is the limits placed on board members who have a conflict of interest. She said that her organization supports term limits. Number 1165 WOODY WIDMARK, Tribal Chairman, Sitka Tribe of Alaska, testified via teleconference. He said the Sitka Tribe appreciates the effort to address subsistence, but does not feel it is adequate. He suggested that the change be two commercial seats, two sport seats, two subsistence seats, and one at large seat. REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked if Mr. Widmark's group supported the idea of dedicated seats on the board. MR. WIDMARK said that he did support the idea but would also like to see more equal representation in the board's makeup. Number 1348 BRUCE SCHACTLER testified before the committee. He said that he has been an active participant in the Board of Fisheries process for the last 20 years. Mr. Shactler said he supports the bill. He said today's board is much more complicated than before, with all of the added environmental issues and other varied interests. He said that the expertise and ability to relate to different fisheries is now lacking on the board. The board needs a little help, and dedicated seats could provide that help, said Mr. Shactler. He said the definition of a commercial fisherman is broad, and gave the example of a commercial clam digger. MR. SHACTLER said that the board takes so much time in meetings, it is difficult for a young, active fisherman to take part in it. He called for the opportunity to see recently retired fishermen on the board to bring their knowledge and experience. He said the bill is a step forward at a time when "we're going backwards real fast." He said that subsistence has enough support from statutory and federal authority, and that if the board is dealing with the resource in a sustainable manner, subsistence is being taken care of automatically. He said one subsistence board member is enough. He said HB 283 is a good bill, but the committee might want to add a few things. Number 1636 GORDY WILLIAMS, Legislative Liaison, Alaska Department of Fish & Game, testified before the committee. He said the department is concerned about term limits. With the board operating on a three-year cycle, the preponderance of issues only come up every three years. Mr. Williams said that with only two terms, it is not easy to learn all of the complexities of all the regions in the state. Number 1732 JERRY McCUNE, United Fishermen of Alaska, testified before the committee. He said the UFA had a long conversation over HB 283 and supports the bill. He said that the UFA knew there would be a great variety of viewpoints on the matter. In order to clear up the problem of board members with multiple interests, Mr. McCune suggested that members appointed as either a sport or subsistence member should not hold a commercial permit. MR. McCUNE said that people are tired of fighting with the governor and legislature over board appointments. He said dedicated seats would ensure equitable representation, and cut down on the strife associated with appointments. He said the UFA was open to discussion on the makeup of the board including the "two, two, two, and one" scenario of sport and charter, commercial, subsistence, and at-large interests, respectively. Number 1940 CHERYL SUTTON, Commercial Fisherman, testified before the committee. She said this bill is intended not to usurp authority from the executive or legislative branch, but rather to make the lives of those involved easier. It would also encourage qualified people to put their names forward to be considered for appointment to the board. She agreed that representation for everyone is important. She said that she would be open to adjusting the makeup of the board to the proposed two, two, two, and one, or whatever worked best. She said that she does not believe in adjusting its size, because the small number on the board can deal with very complex issues if there are qualified people on it. She commented that the bill is not intended to harm anyone; it is intended to be a useful tool. Ms. Sutton said she wants qualified people on the board, not "my guy." She said the board needs people with a vision for the whole state. REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said that he had planned to move the bill out during the meeting, but he had decided that it is "a fisheries bill." He said he wanted to hear some more discussion on the matter. [HB 283 was held.] HB 284-BOARD OF FISHERIES CONFLICTS OF INTEREST [Contains discussion of HB 283] CO-CHAIR STEVENS put before the committee HOUSE BILL NO. 284, "An Act relating to participation in matters before the Board of Fisheries by members of the board; and providing for an effective date." Number 2222 REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI, Sponsor of HB 284, explained that this bill was a companion to [HB 283]. He said regardless of whether HB 283 goes through, it is imperative that this bill move forward. He gave an example of a board member on the Board of Fisheries being "conflicted out" of an issue because he was a charter boat operator. Representative Scalzi said reconsidering the state's boards and commissions would be a good idea because it is counterproductive to excuse those people with the most knowledge and experience in a given area. He said that it is important for a board member to declare any potential conflict of interest, but said that knowledge is lost when those people are "conflicted out." He asked that the bill go through without being amended. Number 2384 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked how this bill would change the Board of Fisheries from other bodies. REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said that he did not want to make blanket changes for all of the other boards. He said it was a one-board issue. Number 2438 REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL said if a person has a conflict under the current regime and states it, the board could give the member consent to participate. He said the bill is "kind of throwing a check and balance out." REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said that the chairman on a board should have the same criteria as the legislature. In the case of an overwhelming conflict, a board member could be excused, but under the current system it is mandatory. REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL said HB 284 is giving a lot of latitude. REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said that the bill gives only the amount of latitude enjoyed by the legislature, the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council, and the International Pacific Halibut Commission. He gave the example of a halibut commission meeting where a member stated a conflict, but was asked to remain and add to the knowledge of the area in question. He spoke of the familial ties in the Bristol Bay area, and said the stringent guidelines could hamstring the board by exempting valuable information and viewpoints. REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL made the clarification that members would not be able to participate unless they declared their conflict and were accepted. REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said that under the current regime, "if you have a conflict, you're excused - end of sentence." Number 2613 REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked if currently one could be forced to vote despite a conflict. REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA said there are some circumstances in which that could be the case, but she deferred to Lance Nelson. Number 2647 LANCE NELSON, Assistant Attorney General, Natural Resources Section (Anchorage), Department of Law, testified via teleconference. He said the way the process works with the board is, the members are expected to declare areas where they would have a conflict with the ethics Act [Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act]; the chairman then rules, and the board can then vote - with a majority - to overturn the chairman's ruling. He said the board generally does not require participation if a member declines. The board can also defer to the Department of Law if there is a question. He said board members can always abstain, and they can always participate as members of the public by not sitting at the table or voting. MR. NELSON said the administration opposes the bill. He said that the administration feels the exemption from the ethics Act is too broad. He pointed out the difficulty in applying the ethics Act to some boards and not others. Under this bill, a conflict of interest cannot be considered a violation of the ethics Act, even though a board member could be in a position to use state resources for personal and financial benefit. Mr. Nelson said that under the bill, the member could disclose the conflict on the record, but there is no board vote or other control over actions that would benefit significant interests of the board member. He said board members would no longer be required to disclose potential violations arising from personal or financial interests in writing to the Office of the Attorney General or a designated supervisor. They would just have to declare it on the record. He said officials and members of the public might not know about a potential conflict unless they were attending the meetings. MR. NELSON said, "It is not as much of an issue as it may seem to be." He told the committee that there were no votes by the board where the conflicts would have made a difference in the outcome of the vote, and there is usually only one member conflicted at a time. Other members of the public who are equally as informed as the member can also testify. MR. NELSON said current requirements do not slow the board or make it less informed. He said another concern is that the "purpose" provision says one thing, but the bill appears to do another. He said that the effect of the bill is not clearly what the drafters might have intended. Mr. Nelson told the committee that the purpose says, "Board members are required to participate, even if they have a conflict by virtue of their participation in the fishery." Mr. Nelson said the language of the bill differs from the purpose because it does not require members with a conflict to participate, and also allows board members to have personal and financial interests in matters before the board without any restriction or qualifications. Number 2944 SUE ASPELUND, Cordova District Fisherman United, testified via teleconference. She disagreed with Lance Nelson on the matter of conflict-of-interest issues "bogging down the process." She said she has sat through 22 years of board meetings where valuable information was lost because members were "conflicted out." She said it is unfair to withhold a permit holder's testimony, but not a lodge owner or processor's. TAPE 02-2, SIDE B MS. ASPELUND expressed her organization's support for HB 284. Number 2920 BRUCE SCHACTLER, Fisherman, testified before the committee. He expressed his complete support for the bill, and likened it to a brother or sister of HB 283. He said this bill is one of the many ways to get the fishing industry moving forward again. Mr. Shactler said that the board system is outdated. He said that public testimony is not where the discussion and debate takes place on the Board of Fisheries. He said that an exempted board member's expertise is lost when that member is not allowed to take part in the discussions that occur outside of the public hearings. He said he would like to see the committee move the bill out. He said the fishing industry needs a lot of help, and that help can only come with positive change. Number 2822 JERRY McCUNE, United Fisherman of Alaska, testified before the committee. He said that in his experiences with the board, he had seen processors, lodge owners, and guides not be conflicted out, but commercial fishermen were conflicted out regularly. He characterized the Board of Fisheries as the most powerful regulatory board in the whole state. He said that all the members on the board should be able to vote, as long as they disclose any potential conflict. Number 2730 CHERYL SUTTON, Commercial Fisherman, testified before the committee. She said that any decision she makes for her business depends on the decisions of the board. She said that the board has been given authority by the legislature to govern a multibillion-dollar industry, and it is a big responsibility. MS. SUTTON said that those members who may be commercial fishermen, and who bring with them a certain amount of expertise, should not be excluded. She said permits and vessels are tangible assets. She said, "Declare them; participate; vote. Name your relatives, name your associations.... People can connect dots." She said what troubles her more are the conflicts that arise where there are no tangible assets. Ms. Sutton said in these cases, bias and prejudice are what the board is forced to operate on. Number 2618 MS. SUTTON said the administration professes that the board members are not elected officials and should not be held to the same standard. She added that the legislature has delegated a portion of its authority; therefore, the board has a larger responsibility than others in the state. She asked the committee "why would we want to conflict out folks who have expertise, when it is very important to formulating sound regulations." She urged the committee to support the bill along with HB 283. Number 2562 REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said that HB 284 was a companion bill to HB 283, and asked that the committee should also hold it for consideration. He said he wanted more dialogue with the administration. He said that the testimony concurred that the bill is the direction that commercial fishing has to go. He said fishermen must rationalize their industry with the most expertise available. Representative Scalzi said he hates to see personal attacks on the issue. He said there is a need for consideration of a more broad representation for the industry. He asked that the bill be held. [HB 284 was held.]
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